Game Design, Programming and running a one-man games business…

Epic opinions

cliffski

I’ve mulled over whether to say anything at all, but if you can’t say what you think about the games industry when you own your own company, when can you?

I was part of a panel yesterday at Develop, the games conference for developers in Brighton UK. I was speaking about ‘microstudios’ with Robin Lacey(Beatnik), Sean Murray(Hello Games) and Mark Morris(Introversion), all of whom are good guys. As a one-man outfit, I’m the real baby studio there, but at 13 years of experience, also the grandfather, so I guess that makes me middle aged. Anyway… all was cool, and there was much joking and mutual silliness. Apparently I am the Barry Manilow of game development, and a mug to spend £75 on jeans. And the topic then came up of how indies can respond directly to gamers on stuff like messageboards. Basically I started making the point, and mark was also agreeing about how someone can email you as an indie dev, and you can reply personally back to that potential customer, and hopefully, that way you have converted that guy to buying the game.

At this point, there was this derisive snort from this guy in the front row, who said something to the effect of ‘one guy? who cares, that’s a waste of time’. He then started to lecture us on how that’s a silly way to do it.  I’m 95% sure that all four of us on the panel thought ‘what the fuck?’ as well as ‘who is this guy’? compounded by Robin asking him if he worked in marketing.

Anyway… it turned out this guy was Mark Rein from Epic, although he seemed to assume everyone within earshot knew exactly who he was, and why he must obviously be right. I got the impression he was there to laugh at the little guys, or to just inform us how we are all wrong. Interestingly, it seemed there was someone from sports interactive (one time indies, as I recall) there, who seemed more on the indie wavelength than Mark. It would have been cool to chat with him.

So… I’ve given this a lot of thought, and weighed up the pros and cons of just putting this down to misinterpreting someone, and so on, and I have reached this conclusion.

Mark Rein is a jerk.

Now I suspect this is not groundbreaking news, although it is to me, because I’ve never met him or even seen him before. However, this experience seems to confirm my opinions on Epic and companies like them in general. Now Mark may well look down on humble indies like me. He may well think I’m doing it wrong. he may laugh when me and Mark discuss the pitiful money our companies make, and giggle at the fact that we reply to gamers on a one-on-one basis… But fuck him. I would rather earn minimum wage making indie strategy games for the PC, as my own boss, with an original game, satisfying a hardcore niche of friendly customers (the one-thousand-true-fans-philosophy), without a publisher telling me what to do, and without having to leave my house to go to work, without having to do ‘crunch time’ (because, dude… its like so macho to work until 3AM and never see your family)… Than I would work at epic for megabucks. The sheer overwhelming stench of testosterone would probably give me a headcahe, combined with the dizzy excitement of exactly what shade of grey our next game’s space-marine would wear as he kicked alien butt. (I feel bad working on Gratuitous Space Battles for almost 2 years, but it seems like that old ‘wisecracking space marine with big muscles and chisel-jaw’ idea has been stretched out longer than the hundred years war).

I have absolutely no doubt mark would just naturally assume me feeling like that is jealousy, which, as anyone who knows me personally would testify, is just fucking funny. I really don’t care about Epic, and their games, as they are way way too macho and ‘dude’ for my liking, and don’t have demos, so I just assume they haven’t changed since Unreal Tournament. I try not to comment on games I don’t like, as each to their own tastes etc.  The only reason I’m moved to give a damn enough to state my opinion, is that I resent having some triple-a studio jerk come and tell someone whose run a microstudio for thirteen years that he is doing it all wrong. If Mark from introversion suggests I’m doing it wrong, thats cool, he does what I do, and has some serious experience, ditto anyone on that panel, or anyone with long indie experience. And I listen carefully, often over lunch.

But Triple-A studio bosses trying to lecture me on how to communicate better with gamers? Fuck off.

Cliff Harris (cliff@positech.co.uk)

192 thoughts on Epic opinions

  2. Bravo Cliffski! I feel compelled to reply to this (a first on a developer board, mind you) as a fan of many of Epic’s games. Mr. Rein was out of line, and a complete douchnozzle. There is absolutely NO COMPARISON between a large dev like Epic and a small or “micro” one like Positech.

    On top of that, despite my love for FPS games in the Epic mold, I couldn’t be more pleased that the indie developers out there are making some unique works of vision that you won’t see from the big box guys. I gambled on GSB a while back, and was very pleasantly surprised. It looks great, sounds nice, and with the challenges there’s an embarrasment of gameplay. I eagerly await the campaign add-on you’ve been mercilessly teasing us with…

    Anyhow, this was mainly a convenient opportunity to write you some fan mail. You’re on my personal short-list of indie developers I keep close tabs on. Now see if you can’t lean on Mark at Introversion and get them to finish Subversion.

  3. Goodness didn’t realise the panel would have caused such a hubub. Regardless of whether people feel Mark’s comments had validity or not he interjected in a very rude way, not once but several times. Although I hear that’s not uncommon behaviour from him, and others were surprised it didn’t happen more often over the conference (especially the Unity talk)

    As an audience member it annoyed me, I went to the panel to hear talk from micro studios and indie devs, not to listen to studio guys snort and interject over how other people handle their lives and work.

  4. Priceless..!

    and…. breathe

    We all still love you Cliff, maybe just a little bit more!

    And no, I’m not a spotty stick-it-to-the-man student type fanyboy.

    And yes, that bloke sounds like a prize pilliock

    epreadator’s comment hit the nail on the head, what a comeback

    “Interesting though that Mark Rein should have to come along personally to interact on a one on one basis, his attitude seemed to be he should have sent some minions to heckle.”

  5. Aside from the fact that Mark pulled a total dick move – well, let’s assume for a moment, just as a gedanken experiment, that general dick-ishness was not actually behind his scornful little outbreak. What could be motivating him?

    I can’t help but remember that the pricing model for UDK is pretty generously skewed toward Epic, but *only* after an initial level of sales ($5000?). From Epic’s perspective, then, UDK – and by extension the indie market using it – makes a lot more sense with profits as high as possible. The more modest perspective demonstrated by you and some other indies – the fact that you value your own autonomy and your contribution to, and connection with, customers more than a huge bottom line – might simply be incomprehensible to them. Alternatively, it might even be downright threatening, by representing the chance that UDK will never get them much money even as a small side project. Even tho Epic preached charity when they released UDK, in other words, they have a built-in incentive to push indie devs to become less of a cottage industry and more of a money-printing machine.

  6. Kudos sir. A grand kudos. Absolutely love your bashing of the big companies. You couldn’t be more right. May I add when I saw Gratuitous Space Battles I passed that on on a personal blog as it looked quite epic. I thoroughly enjoyed this article and you couldn’t be more right.

    Thanks for it!

    Jeff

  7. Well done Cliff! It’s refreshing to see that even though a lot of news sites around the net have misquoted your quotes that the vast majority of people, even on console sites, are on your side.

    I’ve always defended Indies as the way to go in an industry stagnated in creativity and innovation. Mainstream games no longer offer anything new and it’s good to see a small Indie company stand up for what they believe even if they clash against titans and I’m glad you did it because these titans are no longer worthy of being called so. You stood your ground and I applaud for standing for what you believe and know it’s right.

    The next generation of titans will come from the Indies. For me the future of gaming does not like in mainstream gaming and publishers but in the thousands of tiny indie developers spread around the world.

    My hat’s off for you, Mr Harris.

  9. I found this post through kotaku, and I just want to give my two cents.
    You were obviously upset when mark rein budged in on your panel, and maybe you had every right to be. I wasnt there so I wouldnt know, but that alone is in no way any grounds to judge a whole company.

    Epic games started as an indie studio and one of their goals was to reach the big masses and make big games, I would assume. They have done that. They made it. They obviously know what they are doing. They make the games they want to make, make no mistake about that and along the way they have spawned a MASS of indie developers that use their technology to make their own games through their mod community.
    Epic hosts the make something unreal contest every so often that promote the best modifications for their games and enables those projects to push forward and possibly become a game. These are mods, people sitting at home and hammering away out of passion and love for what they are doing.Then there is Unreal Developers Kit, which have enabeled their former mod commuity to now become an Indie dev community. That is beyond comitment, beyond what any other big company has done to support their community, to reach out to people and to enable those people to make it on their own. That is way more important than answering mails. Dont get me wrong, i think its great that you answers your mail but on the whole, it doesnt do much for the indie scene, and epic does.
    Epic enables people to persue their dreams and get into a very competative industry, indie or AAA titles alike. Epic does so much for the games indie scene without asking for anything back. And you see fit to judge this guy because he DARED to speak his mind at a game development panel that is, if i am not mistaking, conceived from the desire to discuss?

    I am currently working in the industry and I long for the day when i have gathered enough experience to join up with people i have met through out my career and go indie. That is my dream. I have no love for big cooperations and I am getting sick of working on big AAA titles that are mainstream and the same stuff you see over and over. For being indie, I salute you. It takes guts, commitment and alot of hard work (I would imagine).

    For being overly sensetive, naive and a bit ignorant I encourage you to do your fucking homework before you pass judgment on one of the biggest supporters of the indie scene.

  10. Epic have sucked shit ever since Rein joined.
    The guy is a total douchebag and has been a cancer on what used to be one of my favourite dev studios. Such a shame.

  11. @Tomas

    You weren’t present at the conference. Mark kept interrupting the conference, giving rude remarks and barging in when it was no questions time yet. He was VERY rude all the time.

    You had to be there to fully appreciate it but Mark deserves the lambasting here because he came across to everyone in the panel and audience as a VERY rude douche.

  12. Hey there Cliff, sorry you had such a hard time at Develop. I’m not a fan of Epic’s games, really, and I struggle to understand the popularity of the Gears franchise, but whatever.

    I’ve met Rein a few times and he’s always been congenial and friendly, despite having a “businessman” doucheyness to his attitude. Of course, he can’t really help that, that’s his job, that’s what he was trained to do. Typically that training involves keeping his mouth shut and making sure other employees of Epic do the same. I’ve never encountered him as you describe him, and I find it hard see the guy doing this for no other reason than to be a snarky bastard.

    So, I think he was drunk. Not very professional, but unfortunately liquor rules the game industry, and it would explain his erratic bitchiness.

  13. Tomas you really need to do your own homework before throwing those accusations around, the UDK licensing terms are bizarre and the cost is significant, the Make Something Unreal contest is great but has only ran twice from my recollection and has only produced one released game (Red Orchestra). The only other indies that have used the engine were the guys behind Roboblitz who had special licensing because they were producing the first UE3 powered game. The point being that the licensing terms are too restrictive and the only way for a company or individual with a turnover of less than 200k+ a year is to win that contest.

    I could go on and on about the incredible lack of support resources available for the UDK, with even basic documentation being for licensees only, or the fact that Epic updates UE with compability breaking features designed for their very narrow choice of genres for their own games.

    But more to the point, all of this is irrelevant because Mark Rein is just a jerk, he goes to these conferences both with an expectation to be treated as a superstar and with a reputation of being a jerk that he feels he has to keep up. His opinion is his opinion but you don’t snort in derision then heckle at a panel of people who run tiny studios effectively.

  14. Pingback: VidGamer.net | Mark Rein d’Epic méprisant envers les studios indépendants

  15. @ Miguel Artur
    I am not defending Mark Rein. Im sure he can be a jerk, as can we all and you are right, I wasnt there. I Have met him though. I met Mark Rein at Dice in Vegas few months back because I was in the winning team of Make something Unreal contest. Granted Epic games invited me, granted he might have put on a good face because we were the winners but I did not get any bad vibes from him. All in all, I liked him. He was a very passionate guy, very chatty and friendly. He promoted epic quite vividly, he promoted the games they make but thats his job so i wouldnt hold that against him. To the point, does that single encounter alone enable me to judge him as a character? Maybe, and cliff most certainly seam to think so. Fair Enough. Does it enable me to judge the company he works for? Not really.
    I just think it is very immature and naive to pass judgement not only on him, not only the company he represents but “all the big” companies in the industry based on something he said or did at a panel for discussions and quite frankly, coming from a guy who has run a company for 13 years it is nothing short of shocking.

    Atleast he made himself heard at a panel for discussions rather than rant down on a public forum like the internet. I find this post very immature, it is just a big rant singling out a big name in the industry and calling him a jerk without actually presenting any counter arguments to what he said, whatever that might have been.

  16. It’s really a shame, because Epic was one of the really great PC game companies back when it was just Tim Sweeney. That guy knew how to make a really good game! Now, it’s gone corporate and has assholes like this guy acting like he owns the place.

    People like that have no business in this industry. It’s should be about making fun, unique, interesting games. NOT about garbage-talk from ridiculous PR people.

  18. IMHO, Mark was just trolling, plain and simple.

    Mark Rein’s job is to sell UE3 licenses. You were in a huge room full of developers who have zero interest in UE3. By acting like a jerk, he was able to shift attention away from whatever you were talking about and on to Epic’s way of doing things. 99% of you were probably annoyed no doubt, but I wouldn’t be surprised if a couple people walked out of that session thinking “yeah, Mark was rude but I think he might be right”. Which is probably good enough for him.

    I mean really, it was a session on micro studios… Why the fuck else would Mark Rein be there? :P

    All the same, I hope the additional press gets you some more GSB sales!

    Source: I’ve had Rein shit on my work, too :P

  19. Pingback: WiiGamer » Blog Archive » Indie Developer to Epic’s Mark Rein: ‘F*ck Off’

  20. @Tomas

    I do agree that one shouldn’t judge an industry from a single individual but truth be told the mainstream gaming industry is a bit on the ruthless side and stifles creativity. Having said that I’d like to say I’m not against your views at all, I just think that Cliff may have reasons to feel angry at Mark, and he has good reasons too since Mark was rude to the point of being obnoxious, and it’s natural for one to overreact and transpose that anger to a lot of other things, like the whole industry. But you’ve said it yourself, you are tired of working AAA titles that are mainstream and the same thing over and over again.

    But you are correct that one shouldn’t transpose a person’s opinion to another medium but if your work is attacked it’s human nature to go defensive, nobody likes when your work is harshly attacked, having reason on the attack or not. I jot it down to human nature though I too have dealing with the gaming industry and find that Cliff may be more right than wrong about the whole ambient and corporate culture that the industry is turning into. It is a ruthless, stressful industry right now, at least mainstream and people’s perceptions of the industry is getting worse and worse.

  21. I have a suggestion in light of your encounter. Whip up a new little fighter unit for “Gratuitous Space Battles” called “Epic Space Marines”. The unit itself can be as useless as it is cheap but die in a visually interesting way while uttering some appropriately Gears-of-Tournament-esque catchphrase. I’d pay for the humor value in that alone.

  22. Hi Cliff – As has been pointed out elsewhere here (and on Twitter) it was me from SI who was there and asked a question about demo’s before the end.

    Regarding our “indieness”, I don’t think we would have passed the “indie test”, as our games have always gone through major publishers, rather than selling direct (we did sell direct one year, but that’s a long story), but we were certainly a micro-studio for many many years, and still run the different teams with the same sort of mentality as “back in the day”.

    I’d be delighted to meet up and talk any time you’re free – the current micro-studio scene is something that fascinates me, mainly because it’s where most of my favourite games are coming from at the moment, although I admit that I haven’t played yours, but will be buying (via Steam) this weekend, so at least you’ve got some extra sales out of the panel!

    We also try and talk direct to the people who play our games, which I do personally via Twitter and Facebook, and sometimes on our forums, although I post a lot less there now than I used to for various reasons which I’m happy to go through with you, but not happy to put on a public forum.

    Shards – I don’t know if I know you or not behind the internet anonymity, and I’m not even sure what you mean by “blustery”. I am certainly opinionated, and not shy of stating that opinion when asked, and very passionate with what I (or the studio, depending on the situation) believe it, but I was at that panel to learn, not to impart my opinion on anyone. I respect each of the guys on the panel, and the independent studio scene at all levels, massively for putting their livelyhoods on the line for their creations, as myself, Ov & Paul did for over a decade at SI until the point where it made sense to us to be part of a larger organisation.

  23. @ Miguel Artur
    It is human nature to get defensive about something you work on, I agree. That does not excuse behaving as badly as the person who potentially wronged you, however. Judging by Cliffs standards I could write off Cliff as a jerk for writing this post, ranting on a public forum about something that has no place being there. I dont, however, nor am I call Cliff an all out immature person. I just think that this post is immature and does no good for anyone. If its a publicity stunt that congrats, you have made some headlines but all in all, I think it goes to make the games industry, an industry that is already a difficult industry to be working in, even worse.

    If he just needs to vent thats fine, Ive done quite a bit of name calling and ranting in my day but I keep it to my mates over a paint. I think we are all frustrated with the games industry at one point or another but I really do believe that acting out in this manner does more harm than good in the overall picture.

  24. @ Tomas

    Agreed, Cliff could have handled things a bit more professionally, true. I can’t fault him for it though, human nature is often stronger than anything.

    I agree that this blog post as it is is probably doing more harm than good to the industry but what if Cliff had written the same content but in a more professional way? Would it help the industry too? The point I’m making being that this industry is becoming faceless and uncaring faster and faster and there may come a day where anything written about the industry will do more harm than good regardless of what’s written.

  25. Bravo. Its the Indy houses that keep this industry fresh. Instead of constantly churning out regurgitation of last year’s hits, Indy devs bring a fresh perspective, voice and vision to the gaming world. It would do the entire industry a giant service to look at the concepts Indy developers bring to the table and try and implant some of that creative vision into their overly bloated conglomerated releases.

  26. Thanks for that, your independence on what you want to work and how you want to work is refreshing and inspirational. Keep it up and I’m going to try some of your games now.

  27. Pingback: Indie Developer to Epic’s Mark Rein: ‘F*ck Off’ « Modern Games

  28. Cliff Harris:

    Don’t let any of these assholes get you down whining about “professionality”

    You had your career defaced publicly by a fucking douchebag. I’d be pissed off too.

    Anyway it was good to read your words on that, thanks for sticking up for yourself and the rest of us. (the little guys)

    In any case, you’ve got my respect. I’ve never heard of you before, but I’ll be going to check out your games.

  29. This snort reflects the worth of a sale to a big company. After overheads and publishing fees how much is a single sale worth to Mr Big compared to Mr Indie? Mr Big might see 0.0001c rise in his share options/bonus – whereas Mr Indie could see $15 in his take home pay from the same sale.

    Each point of view is valid within it’s own sphere of business – but this clearly shows a misunderstanding of how a one man band operates.

  30. Go you Cliffski :-)

    Tbh, this sucks – it sucks because i like Epics last 2 games, really liked them that and CliffyB over at epic has always seemed nice when interviewed, to hear a senior member one of my faviourate studios treat a great pannel of indy developers like they are dumb is a real piss down.

    big shame, i always liked epic; shame this story doesnt have a happy ending.

    btw Cliff, fix the gui more!!! we all know how much you like doing that :P

  32. Pingback: Epic’s Mark Rein heckles indie devs, told to f*ck off

  33. “so that indie games can be just as over budget and blandly similar as 90% of xbox games.”

    Now you’re just talking out of your ass.

  34. Pingback: GameTard – PC & Video Games News » Blog Archive » Indie Developer to Epic’s Mark Rein: ‘F*ck Off’

  35. What drivel. I got here through a link on Desctructoid but really didn’t have any opinion one way or the other. I had to re-read parts of your text several times in an attempt to discern any real point or justification for this tirade of personal attacks and bitching followed by several poor arguments and further ad hominems.

    What did he actually say? The guy COULD have been a total prick but you never specify how or why he disagreed. For all I know those evil “Big Bucks” might fund actual in-depth research into how the market actually fucking works. While you’re own personal life-style business works for you, the advice you’re dispensing as an ‘authority’ may be demonstrably false by real data. (I have absolutely no idea if any of this is true, I’m making a point.)

    I’ve played and enjoyed some Epic games. I’ve probably not yours but am sure they’re wonderfully charming and original. You should however make your case better. The way someone’s acting, doesn’t tell us much about what they said.

    I would think “someone whose run a microstudio for thirteen years” would be more professional.

  36. Pingback: Epic’s Mark Rein heckles indie devs, told to f*ck off| XboxSold.com where you find Everything Xbox| XboxSold.com BLOG
  37. Pingback: Indie Developer to Epic’s Mark Rein: ‘F*ck Off’
  38. Pingback: “Mark Rein is a jerk.” – An Indie Developer | Tech Spotlight

  39. I don’t think calling names this dude, Mark Rein, is a good idea. Is burning bridges, and thats is never a good idea…. or that is my personal rule, other people can have other rules.

    What I see here positive, is that the industry on UK can create something that is talked about worldwide. I think is important for the world and uk, to look at britain wen talking about videogame things. USA can have a mass-appeal industry, and produce 900 giganteous blockbusters a year, and win the war only with the power of his industry. These are numbers soo big, that stop making sense to me, and any other human this side of the world. The Indie industry is delivering (a word that I think the AAA industry has to love), what the Indie industry is delivering is rare type of quality, gems, something akin to “I+D”, … creating new types of gameplays, exploring what can be done. And doing all this in the cheap. If the indie culture die today, I would remenber it with a fond memory, but It will be a great think if continue, a great and very healty thing for the industry as a whole.

    Videogames is not the only option for enteirnament, is the favorite now, but withouth the “I+D” impetus of the Indie people is possible that the whole thing would fade out, since people bored of tired old formulas can change his enteirnamente to something else.

    I think we needs the types like Mark Reins, and the types like Cliffski.

  40. Pingback: Latest Game Reviews » Blog Archive » Indie Developer to Epic’s Mark Rein: ‘F*ck Off’
  41. Pingback: Epic’s Mark Rein Pisses Off Positech’s Cliff Harris | Machinima.com Inside Gaming News
  42. Pingback: Developer Beef Watch: Positech Vs Epic | Rock, Paper, Shotgun

  44. Sing it, Cliff! (your educated opinion, that is.) Did M.R. have any advice for you on how to part your hair or tie your shoes? I can only assume he thinks you do those things wrong too…

  45. Wicked post mate!
    I think it’s funny to compare you and Rein because it’s kinda like comparing a cowboy and city slicker.
    You put both in the wild on their own and only one is going to survive.
    Rein would dry up, turn to dust and sweep away with the wind if he didn’t have millions of dollars and hundreds of people with talent behind him. Even then, his studio generates games that essentially play themselves. Woopdedoo.
    You on the other hand, if handed a keyboard and mouse could generate a game on your own, subsequently a studio, and an income all your own.

    I think one of the most interesting points that somebody else has already made in your comments is the fact that Gabe Newell answers his fans emails, one to one.

    Fuck Rein. Fuckin’ sales…

  46. This post just sold me on buying Gratuitous Space Battles…

    Call it a reward for good customer service, or Karma coming back around for you… Thanks. Heading over to Steam right now to buy it.

  47. The abject failure of the Unreal Tournament 3 launch is proof positive that Mark Rein shouldn’t be giving marketing advice to anyone.

  48. It’s one thing attending a panel and listening to people, or behave like an idiot by interrupting those who share their experience. If this wasn’t interesting to Marc Reign, he should have left the room. Or he should have waited for the Q&A part.

    I’ve been working at Westka as a Lead Game Engine developer for an unpublished game when my bosses invited Epic to the company. They bought Epics Unreal 2 engine back then with the promise that the engine is usable. Happened that it wasn’t and more than half of the time the programmers of the Y-Project had to fix bugs, program around bugs and work with non-functional tools. The project manager came by my office one day because we managed to deliver a working prototype 2 weeks ahead schedule with our own game engine. When we showed him the tools, he had his jaw dropping. My company paid $500k back then for a non-working engine. A payroll which finally weighted in so much that the company closed doors.

    During that time I actually had the chance to meet Mark Reign in person. And his behavior back then already was as some people described it here: Paying no attention at all to people who are not directly involved in him selling his stuff…

    That said, a wording says: “You always meet twice.” and hopefully, next time, some people got a little bit more mature…

  49. Rein was rude no doubt there. Little known fact he got into some fight with everyone at id software way back in the day during Wolf3D development and was let go from id Software. It’s mentioned in the Masters of Doom book I think.

    That should give you a clue as to the man.

    That said Epic were sort of an indie studio for a few years at the beginning before they went big time with Unreal, when did Mark Reign join ?

  50. Pingback: Game Strike » Indie Developer to Epic’s Mark Rein: ‘F*ck Off’

Comments are currently closed.