This happened.

Discussion of the space strategy game where you design ships, issue orders to your fleet, then play hands-off battles against human or AI designed enemies.
StigRS77
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Re: This happened.

Postby StigRS77 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:06 pm

Ships are set to stop at a certain distance from the opponent, and the max range of MWM is 1160, the longest-ranged Cruiser weapon in the game. Cruiser Plasmas have a range of 950, Target Painters 700 and Cruiser Lasers 490. If you have set your Pythons to stop at 1160, none of the other weapons will fire until the enemy comes within their respective ranges.

In addition, the range is from the foremost weapon slot of the ship (perhaps even the nose of the ship!), which is a pretty long distance away from the rearmost weapon slot on the Python. Maybe 150 meters. So, in other words, if you want all your MWM's to fire at once the correct setting is 1060.

This is why, if you want to protect those Pythons against aggressive close-combat ships and fighters, it is not a good idea to equip all of them with that defense, especially when you use MWM's which need every weapon slot they can get. Instead, add other ships and keep them together with a Formation instruction/order.

MWM spam is powerful in Campaign, but it does have "hard counters", and when you eventually face one of those fleets you will lose them all - and that can be a major setback if it happens early. There are no hard counters for a Plasma+Beam Laser fleet with sufficient anti-fighter defense, especially if it has 0.11 or higher speed, which means it can withdraw from the battle!
Berny_74
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Re: This happened.

Postby Berny_74 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:10 pm

I would be terribly worried about running into a Parasite fleet armed with missile revenge scramblers. As Parasites I have fought engagements where the majority of the fleet was wiped out by their own missiles.

Also - how about fighters armed with targeting lasers?

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Aeson
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Re: This happened.

Postby Aeson » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:40 am

StigRS77 wrote:max range of MWM is 1160, the longest-ranged Cruiser weapon in the game

Not quite. Standard Cruiser Missiles have a whole 40 extra range, for a total range of 1200. Not that it makes a significant difference, of course, and MWMs are still better at the long-range war.

StigRS77 wrote:In addition, the range is from the foremost weapon slot of the ship (perhaps even the nose of the ship!), which is a pretty long distance away from the rearmost weapon slot on the Python. Maybe 150 meters. So, in other words, if you want all your MWM's to fire at once the correct setting is 1060.

1160 - 150 is more like 1010, not 1060, StigRS77. Close enough unless the other guy is stopping at extreme range too, though (but then, 1160 is close enough in this case, too). Engagement ranges are measured from the centroid of your ship to the centroid of the target ship, so a fudge factor of about half the length of your ship should ensure that whenever your ship stops moving, all of its weapons are in range of the target. Go with something a little larger for extra insurance, or something a little smaller in the hopes of staying just out of opponent ranges for some weapons. Since ships generally tend to be oriented roughly bow towards the enemy, this also means that it's better to place shorter-ranged weapons closer to the bow of the ship, unless the purpose of that weapon isn't to engage primary targets (for example, I'd sooner have a Cruiser Defense Laser towards the middle of the ship where it can cover the whole vessel than placing it towards the bow and leave the stern unprotected).

Berny_74 wrote:I would be terribly worried about running into a Parasite fleet armed with missile revenge scramblers.

Maybe it's just me, but I almost never seem to run into Parasites in campaign. Don't really know why.

Berny_74 wrote:Also - how about fighters armed with targeting lasers?

My experience is that I have to replace them too often, but might also not be buying them in sufficient quantities. It also has the issue of not necessarily being able to accompany the cruisers to all the places you want target painting for cruiser missiles, as well as cutting into my budget for actual fighters, which I typically use as my primary anti-fighter defense and eventually as a swarm fleet.
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Re: This happened.

Postby Variant Phalanx » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:16 am

To respond:

I have run into Parasites, more often than not. But I can destroy them despite the Disrupter, it just can't keep up.

I don't know how effective a fighter armed with a target painter would work, it might get obliterated over and over again.
Ahhh...That wasn't supposed to happen.
terence
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Re: This happened.

Postby terence » Tue Oct 13, 2015 7:52 am

Variant Phalanx wrote:I only have seen my fleet use MWM,they have Cruiser Lasers and Plasma Weapons, they refuse to use them.

I won't question it though, it works, they always beat the enemy with acceptable losses. The sheer amount of missiles my cruisers dish out makes using anything other than Swarm Disrupter (Not even then in my experience) ineffectual.

That's without Target Painter.


How come they refuse to use Cruiser Lasers and Plasma Weapons? Are these type of weapons not effective to use?
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Re: This happened.

Postby Aeson » Wed Oct 14, 2015 3:07 am

terence wrote:How come they refuse to use Cruiser Lasers and Plasma Weapons? Are these type of weapons not effective to use?

The only likely reason why Variant Phalanx's ships 'refused' to use Cruiser Lasers and Plasma weapons is simply that the weapons were out of range. Multiple Warhead Missiles have a considerable range advantage over cruiser plasma and especially Cruiser Lasers (in fact, Cruiser Lasers and Multiple Warhead Missiles cannot fire on the same target at any point, as the minimum range of an MWM exceeds the maximum range of a Cruiser Laser). This does not make either the cruiser laser or cruiser plasma bad, but it does mean that it's not necessarily a good idea to mount both on the same ship; cruiser lasers are only an appropriate weapon on a missile cruiser intended to be able to handle rushes, as the laser will never come into play if the engagement is fought at standard missile ranges, and plasma doesn't really do anything that missiles don't.

Missile spams and plasma spams are roughly equally effective long-range fleets, with missiles being longer-ranged and plasma being a bit harder to counter with defenses (due to immunity to PD and scramblers, as well as to slightly higher armor penetration); as plasma range is more similar to cruiser beam range and generally has somewhat higher armor penetration than missiles, it's also a bit better against armor-heavy fleets (missiles are also somewhat less appropriate as a weapon to pair with beams because sacrificing missile density to gain the beams can be crippling if fighting an opponent with decent PD or especially scramblers). Cruiser lasers are an entirely different weapon, best suited for and very effective on fast cruiser designs but also useful as a close-range weapon for long-range warships in case something survives the long-range bombardment long enough to engage. Note that a long-range warship that sacrifices a missile or plasma for a cruiser laser is probably going to lose against a pure-long range warship (the laser will never come into play, so you'll have sacrificed power at range for no gain in such a scenario) in a similar-numbers scenario.

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