123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Discussion of the space strategy game where you design ships, issue orders to your fleet, then play hands-off battles against human or AI designed enemies.
123stw
Supreme Robot
Supreme Robot
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:00 am

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby 123stw » Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:12 am

michael sandy wrote:So if all your tanks have ECM guns, and your hammers are on retaliate, then eventually the front row enemy tanks won't be firing, which means your hammers will be hitting the next rank ships.

But that is only a fairly short window to smash the next rank of ships. When a ship switches target because of retaliate, how long does it stay with its new target? Will it go back to its original target when the ECM effect wears off?

You don't need to be that complicated. Retaliate triggers quite often so it will work with or without those ECM.

The 1 weapon on tank is really just to draw initial aggro from fleet that isn't using the retaliate command, as ship without a single gun gets ignored by the firing AI.

Of course, the retaliate tag comes with the trade off of firing all over the place, which is a disadvantage against fleets without tanks (such as Tribe). The co-op tag is a lot better in those situations.
Coyote
Senior Line Supervisor
Senior Line Supervisor
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:53 am

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby Coyote » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:48 pm

123stw wrote:You don't need to be that complicated. Retaliate triggers quite often so it will work with or without those ECM.

The 1 weapon on tank is really just to draw initial aggro from fleet that isn't using the retaliate command, as ship without a single gun gets ignored by the firing AI.

Of course, the retaliate tag comes with the trade off of firing all over the place, which is a disadvantage against fleets without tanks (such as Tribe). The co-op tag is a lot better in those situations.


So, the optimal Tank armament would be high-speed, long-range, and set for Retaliate?

BTW, 123, I love the updates. This is getting better and better. Would you like any help with editing?
123stw
Supreme Robot
Supreme Robot
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:00 am

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby 123stw » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:56 am

If you want to change something to make it more readable, go right ahead.
Ramcat
Supreme Robot
Supreme Robot
Posts: 268
Joined: Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:41 pm

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby Ramcat » Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:53 pm

123stw, while I have some reservations about the triangle, there is one thing I have no reservation about.

This is an absolutely fine piece of work!! Keep up the good work. Really, any new players reading this (and even seasoned players) will appreciate the insight and improve their game by reading and practicing these principles. Great to see the dedication, and work you're putting into this. This is a touchstone for a strategy guide to GSB! Meaning everthing in the future could be measured against this.

If I wasn't putting so much effort into the campaign I might do a bit of editing or add some comments about fighters. But really, you're doing fine without any help!!
123stw
Supreme Robot
Supreme Robot
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:00 am

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby 123stw » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:26 pm

I will write a section for "beyond the triangle" or something. Random counter and stuff that works against certain specific fleets.
thc
Supreme Robot
Supreme Robot
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:51 am

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby thc » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:47 pm

Nice update! You may want to look into making it into a more readable format. Take a look at gamefaqs formatting guidelines. Even if you don't want to post it there, they have some good tips on formatting. Here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/help/entry.html?cat=28

And as an example, one of my own game guides: http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/920668-drago ... faqs/58768 </shameless plug>

You may even want to consider posting it on gamefaqs, maybe that will get this game more attention.


"Repair, even the Tribe one, should never be used without armor. Like shield recharge, repairing HP doesn't work in tough battles when they are needed the most. They easily gets overloaded and usually have over half their supplies unused."


I disagree. They're worth it IF you can position your ships so that they do use all of their supplies. That requires some testing, and you can't expect to use them on your ships on the frontline. You can use them on your "reinforcements" (e.g., the ships in the back), because after some time, when the DPS on both sides goes down, the recharge rate can keep up. I used this tactic to beat one of JoeCairo's NEC plasma spams. I estimate that 90% of supplies were used in that particular fight. That's basically an additional 1000 HP per module.

Also, tribe repairs are definitely worth it on AA cruisers placed in the back of your fleet.

Base on the weapon, here are a few armor value to remember

Armor > 12 = immunity to fighters
Armor > 52 = immunity to everything except beam.
Armor > 73 = immunity to all


I think "immunity" is kind of misleading, because we all know that it's not. For example, against laser fighters, an armor of 8 is almost nothing. (Also, I think the more important break point is the laser fighter armor penetration. Rocket fighters can't even bypass shields, in which case, it means your ship is already being beaten on by things with bigger armor penentration.)

The amount of effective hit points armor provides against laser fighters looks something like this:

eHP =[ (Avg Armor - 8)/(Avg Armor) * (total armor - penalty)] / [ (critical dmg/normal dmg) * (critical rate)]

The total armor of two heavy armors after penalty is 281, critical damage, I don't know how to calculate, but the ratio is approximately 1, and critical rate is 3% (or was it 2%?). An average armor of 8.5 gets you ~500 eHP against laser fighters, which is simply not worth it. Whereas an avg armor of 10 gets you 2.3k eHP!

In other words, practically, armor isn't worth it unless you can get armor significantly higher than the armor penetration.
123stw
Supreme Robot
Supreme Robot
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:00 am

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby 123stw » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:10 pm

thc wrote:Nice update! You may want to look into making it into a more readable format. Take a look at gamefaqs formatting guidelines. Even if you don't want to post it there, they have some good tips on formatting. Here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/features/help/entry.html?cat=28

And as an example, one of my own game guides: http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/920668-drago ... faqs/58768 </shameless plug>

You may even want to consider posting it on gamefaqs, maybe that will get this game more attention.

I made several guides on Gamefaqs before. Yeah this one is still quite messy at the moment and needs to be clean up.

thc wrote:
"Repair, even the Tribe one, should never be used without armor. Like shield recharge, repairing HP doesn't work in tough battles when they are needed the most. They easily gets overloaded and usually have over half their supplies unused."


I disagree. They're worth it IF you can position your ships so that they do use all of their supplies. That requires some testing, and you can't expect to use them on your ships on the frontline. You can use them on your "reinforcements" (e.g., the ships in the back), because after some time, when the DPS on both sides goes down, the recharge rate can keep up. I used this tactic to beat one of JoeCairo's NEC plasma spams. I estimate that 90% of supplies were used in that particular fight. That's basically an additional 1000 HP per module.

Also, tribe repairs are definitely worth it on AA cruisers placed in the back of your fleet.

Putting repairs on the safest positioned ships somewhat contradicts itself, because every repair forgoes a gun. So for a drag out long range war you can lose over 1000 damage for that 1000 HP. If to get repair to work requires very fine toned conditions.

I will go test 2 identical plasma fleet, one with repair in the back and one without, and see how they play out.

While my AA tends to come with armor as well, I do agree that repair works for AA so long as lasers can't overload it.

thc wrote:
Base on the weapon, here are a few armor value to remember

Armor > 12 = immunity to fighters
Armor > 52 = immunity to everything except beam.
Armor > 73 = immunity to all


I think "immunity" is kind of misleading, because we all know that it's not. For example, against laser fighters, an armor of 8 is almost nothing. (Also, I think the more important break point is the laser fighter armor penetration. Rocket fighters can't even bypass shields, in which case, it means your ship is already being beaten on by things with bigger armor penentration.)

The amount of effective hit points armor provides against laser fighters looks something like this:

eHP =[ (Avg Armor - 8)/(Avg Armor) * (total armor - penalty)] / [ (critical dmg/normal dmg) * (critical rate)]

The total armor of two heavy armors after penalty is 281, critical damage, I don't know how to calculate, but the ratio is approximately 1, and critical rate is 3% (or was it 2%?). An average armor of 8.5 gets you ~500 eHP against laser fighters, which is simply not worth it. Whereas an avg armor of 10 gets you 2.3k eHP!

In other words, practically, armor isn't worth it unless you can get armor significantly higher than the armor penetration.

I thought I mentioned the need to go over. I see if I can make it more obvious.

Though repair typically works better than going way over the breakpoints, so long as repair can keep up with the critical damage. 8.5 with 490 supply to repair it will last longer than 10, as 490 repair translates to 16333 eHP. The purpose of going over is to give a bracket of eHP for repair to work with so it doesn't get overloaded.
michael sandy
Type I Robot
Type I Robot
Posts: 43
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:18 pm

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby michael sandy » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:47 am

Anybody know what units the repair stocks are counting? A carrier bay repairs, what? Armor and hit points? Hullsize?
ZedF
Senior Line Supervisor
Senior Line Supervisor
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 2:15 pm

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby ZedF » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:41 pm

Supply = hull points and armour points. Points of damage, basically.
User avatar
AcePalarum
Supreme Robot
Supreme Robot
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:57 pm
Location: Lurking Right Behind You

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby AcePalarum » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:53 pm

123stw wrote:"Repair, even the Tribe one, should never be used without armor. Like shield recharge, repairing HP doesn't work in tough battles when they are needed the most. They easily gets overloaded and usually have over half their supplies unused."


While I will never flat-out contradict another player, I will say that the times I have seen a repair module wiped out before it was at least ~90% used have been few and far between. Maybe I just use some weird combination of orders or something that changes the game dynamic. Couldn't say.

123stw wrote:Putting repairs on the safest positioned ships somewhat contradicts itself, because every repair forgoes a gun.


This is not necessarily true. I have plenty of ship designs that have weapons in all available hardpoints and still have a repair system. In those cases, the only thing that would likely replace the repair system is a single plate of armor that doesn't provide nearly as much survival utility as the repair system.
While my ability to succeed is finite, my capacity for failure knows no bounds.
*Basement Tinkerer and OCD Savant of the Friendly Community Mod Squad*

Mods: Matmos Rift, Antares Expanse, Great Powers Stations
123stw
Supreme Robot
Supreme Robot
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:00 am

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby 123stw » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:13 pm

AcePalarum wrote:
123stw wrote:"Repair, even the Tribe one, should never be used without armor. Like shield recharge, repairing HP doesn't work in tough battles when they are needed the most. They easily gets overloaded and usually have over half their supplies unused."


While I will never flat-out contradict another player, I will say that the times I have seen a repair module wiped out before it was at least ~90% used have been few and far between. Maybe I just use some weird combination of orders or something that changes the game dynamic. Couldn't say.

The problem is the "few and far between" are precisely the tough battles. Put in another way, if you are winning with over 50%, your repair will work fine, but you didn't need the repair to win. If you are facing evenly match battles where winning is based on a small margin, then the repair comes back to haunt you as they get overloaded by focus fire.

AcePalarum wrote:
123stw wrote:Putting repairs on the safest positioned ships somewhat contradicts itself, because every repair forgoes a gun.


This is not necessarily true. I have plenty of ship designs that have weapons in all available hardpoints and still have a repair system. In those cases, the only thing that would likely replace the repair system is a single plate of armor that doesn't provide nearly as much survival utility as the repair system.

You forgo a gun by raising the cost of the one ship. If you leave the module empty you can build more ships.
erjh
Senior Line Supervisor
Senior Line Supervisor
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:18 am

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby erjh » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:24 pm

I've found the Tribe repair dynamic changes significantly if you use more repairers. I typically put two on carriers (as they tend to have fighters drawn to them), one on bombardment ships (plasma and MWM) (I design fleets so these ships avoid taking too much damage; one is usually enough to keep a bombardment design in the fight unless things are going badly), and a minimum of four on front line cruisers. This ups the ships regenerative capacity considerably, and adds to the longevity of the repair modules themselves as they can be mutually repaired.

Of course, if a ship is under very heavy attack then almost all types of defences become irrelevant, except the kind of armour tank that is impossible for Tribe anyway (if you can get more than 39 armour rating on a Tribe design with a gun, I'd like to know how).
123stw
Supreme Robot
Supreme Robot
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:00 am

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby 123stw » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:44 pm

I was a big fan of repair until I start slaughtering my repair fleets with my non repair fleets. Non repair Tribe fleet will significantly out gun the same Tribe fleets with heavy repair, and when the DPS is combined with the co-op tag repairs get overloaded in no time.

I have never seen, or have gotten repair to work in the front line.

Shield is different because they provide resistance and a solid block of shield strength, and armor tank is clearly in a different class. Repair however, give nothing at start and only start working after it gets damaged. They won't have the chance to provide anything in the fights where win/lose is determined by under 30%.

In a simplified way, Tribe repair is something that works great when you are already winning, and stops working when you start losing.
User avatar
lkohime
Supreme Robot
Supreme Robot
Posts: 448
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:06 am

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby lkohime » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:50 am

123stw wrote:I was a big fan of repair until I start slaughtering my repair fleets with my non repair fleets. Non repair Tribe fleet will significantly out gun the same Tribe fleets with heavy repair, and when the DPS is combined with the co-op tag repairs get overloaded in no time.

I have never seen, or have gotten repair to work in the front line.

Shield is different because they provide resistance and a solid block of shield strength, and armor tank is clearly in a different class. Repair however, give nothing at start and only start working after it gets damaged. They won't have the chance to provide anything in the fights where win/lose is determined by under 30%.

In a simplified way, Tribe repair is something that works great when you are already winning, and stops working when you start losing.

Repair has saved my ass more times then i can count.
I normally run 1 or 2 pieces of armor, 2 shields and a repair on my front-line am/af cruisers. They don't hold agro so they don't get shot TOO much, but they get killed fairly fast. I can more then double their lifespan by dropping a weapon or armor and adding a single repair module
Creator of the Laser Fighter Swarm tactic for Campaign, hater of fighters
123stw
Supreme Robot
Supreme Robot
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 1:00 am

Re: 123's Comprehensive GSB Guide

Postby 123stw » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:23 am

Care to post some examples? I want to see a Tribe fleet that improved after adding repair. All the fleet I had made in the past has only improved by removing them.

I should also include that this guide is NOT intended for the campaign. Repair fits well with the "preserve and outnumber" philosophy and therefore should work great in the campaign.

Return to “Gratuitous Space Battles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests