Gun control in USA

Forum for non-game specific political debate of the issues raised in general by the game. Economics, transport policy, the environment, gun crime etc etc. be nice!
Revolverhawk
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby Revolverhawk » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:48 am

mechasaprophyte wrote:
Parthon wrote:Criminals don't think "Hey, now that I have a gun, I can start doing crime!" at all. They are often already committing crimes.


Yeah, but they're not committing crimes nearly as well (as a consequence of this, one might also expect that they're committing crimes less frequently and less violently).
And personally, I'd be much happier to be robbed at knifepoint than at gunpoint (even if, in the latter case, I also have a gun and the belief that this will enable me to "defend myself" instead of just getting me shot).

Still, I do emphatically agree with you guys that while gun control might or might not reduce crime, the real solution is to remedy the underlying social conditions


Well, like I said, this line of thinking is what they used in Illinois...yet when the handgun bans were overturned, the crime rate got lower. And the crooks couldn't have run to a state were handguns WERE banned, because the bans were overturned on a national level. Crooks aren't suicidal, they are greedy. Of course, Japan banned handguns, and they have low crime. And Switzerland gives most of it's citizens a sub-machine gun in case of invasion, and they have low crime. So this means that crime is overwhelmingly dependent on social conditions.
mechasaprophyte
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby mechasaprophyte » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:15 am

I didn't much want to get into this, but I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to. Are you talking about the D.C. vs. Heller case? Because even if crime has gone down in the months since that decision (I didn't find any defense of this claim in your links, and frankly I think it's too soon to tell whether an actual trend is occurring, much less to disentangle any of the hundreds of possible causes), handgun bans are still being enforced in much of Illinois. For example, if I'm not mistaken, the 7th circuit court of appeals upheld Chicago's ban. So I'm a bit confused as to the basis of your claims.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby Revolverhawk » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:48 am

mechasaprophyte wrote:I didn't much want to get into this, but I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to. Are you talking about the D.C. vs. Heller case? Because even if crime has gone down in the months since that decision (I didn't find any defense of this claim in your links, and frankly I think it's too soon to tell whether an actual trend is occurring, much less to disentangle any of the hundreds of possible causes), handgun bans are still being enforced in much of Illinois. For example, if I'm not mistaken, the 7th circuit court of appeals upheld Chicago's ban. So I'm a bit confused as to the basis of your claims.



Actually, they are banned in Chicago still, your right. My apologies. However, that does make this more hilarious:

http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2009/05/2 ... 0-minutes/
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby Revolverhawk » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:45 am

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pigsnoutman
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby pigsnoutman » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:53 am

Okay, it seems guns lower crime rates. But what about violent crime rate etc. With guns, people are probably more likely to die in the crimes, even if there are less.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby ohms_law » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:10 am

Let's assume the following for a moment:
  • You have complete control over policy
  • banning handguns increases crime overall (for the sake of simplicity, say 20%), but decreases violent crime somewhat (again, for the sake of simplicity, say 20%).
  • allowing handguns decreases crime overall (20%), but increases violent crime somewhat(20%).
In other words, for the sake of argument, there is a perfect trade off between legalizing handguns and changes in crime rates (which is patently ridiculous in real life, but this is a thought experiment). What do you choose to do?
Me personally, I'll always choose complete legalization. Freedom is always better then attempting to control behavior... but, that's me. Obviously, allowing people to be free creates issues, but the answer is not to try to take away everyone's freedoms. I just don't understand that line of thinking, I guess.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby delorina » Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:05 am

How do I counter the following specific anti gun-control argument convincingly? The gun-control proposition: If no one carried a gun then there would be no need for any individual to carry one, concealed or not. The anti gun-control argument to that proposition: In the absence of guns, there is still violence perpetrated on victims (rape, battery, attempted murder, etc.). Victims have the right to defend themselves and, especially weaker or elderly ones, the right to do it with something practical, easy to use, and with guaranteed stopping power like a gun. How do I counter that argument convincingly?
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Last edited by delorina on Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby rboni » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:37 pm

Your argument mimicks the suggestion that criminals not guns kill people, it ignores the fact that thousands are killed each year, many of them children, from the accidental discharge of guns, and that people, whether criminal, insane, or temporarily carried away by impulse, kill and are much more likely to do so when armed than when disarmed

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