Gun control in USA

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seamus
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Gun control in USA

Postby seamus » Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:52 pm

When nearly 50 percent of american households have a weapon and 25% of the worlds prisioners in the united states, what can be done? Other thoughts and ideas on control? Speak now!
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby Styrax » Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:11 am

seamus wrote:When nearly 50 percent of american households have a weapon and 25% of the worlds prisioners in the united states, what can be done? Other thoughts and ideas on control? Speak now!

It's all about gun education. There are a lot of idiots who own guns, but don't know a thing about gun safety, such as leaving guns where their kid can find it. That said, it's our right to own a gun and the government, who is supposed to defend the Constitution by the way, should not be able to take that right away. It's the ultimate in personal responsibility, being able to protect one's self. The problem is that more and more people lack any sense of personal responsibility, relying instead on the government.

If you look at facts and not fiction such as Michael Moore, etc., you'll see that violent crimes are lower in areas where ownership of guns is higher. Give the criminals some credit, they are smart enough to know to go after someone without a gun. I'm not saying the government has no place in this issue. The government has every right to know who owns a gun and to be sure they know their gun safety. I'm also for convicted felons not having access to guns, however I'm willing to bet a total ban of guns won't keep criminals from finding them since most crimes are committed by unregistered guns.

You also have the issue of guns on airplanes. I don't think passengers should be allowed to carry guns on board. However, I think pilots and/or stewards/stewardesses should be allowed to. I'd go as far as requiring gun training for pilots. How many lives could have been saved if pilots were armed on any of the 9/11 flights?
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby pigsnoutman » Fri Apr 03, 2009 11:38 am

Styrax wrote: How many lives could have been saved if pilots were armed on any of the 9/11 flights?

Some, but there would probably been a few more crashed planes due to accidents. Anyway, the criminals also work out that with a gun, they can shoot people. Criminals will tend to get guns anyway, which is an arguement in guns' favour.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby mechasaprophyte » Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:51 pm

what's the source for the 50% statistic? What I've seen puts it at less than a quarter

Styrax wrote:It's the ultimate in personal responsibility, being able to protect one's self. The problem is that more and more people lack any sense of personal responsibility, relying instead on the government.


Honestly, I'm okay with the government preventing me from getting shot, and do not consider this a lapse of personal responsibility on my part.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby ohms_law » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:27 pm

Regarding the airline pilots with guns point, that's a bad idea. The pilots and airlines don't want them for a very good reason: a pressurized airliner at 30,000 feet is a bad place to shoot a gun!
Heck, most terrorists don't use guns (and that has very little to do with getting one on board. It'd likely be easier to get a gun onboard then a bomb).

Now, if you'd like to advocate for allowing airline crew to carry Tazers, that's probably a good idea. I could see the head steward/stewardess being trained and authorized to carry one (basic police tactics), at least.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby cliffski » Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:35 am

I suspect a big part of the problem is education. Well educated people with good career prospects don't generally take up gun crime.
The US should focus serious amounts of money on encouraging people in poor communities to get a decent education and job training.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby Styrax » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:42 am

mechasaprophyte wrote:what's the source for the 50% statistic? What I've seen puts it at less than a quarter


I've never seen 50% either, though I've seen close to 40%. I wonder how the data was collected or if it was a poll. Some polls simply ask if you have a firearm in your home or possess one, while others ask if you "legally" own one.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby Styrax » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:54 am

cliffski wrote:I suspect a big part of the problem is education. Well educated people with good career prospects don't generally take up gun crime.
The US should focus serious amounts of money on encouraging people in poor communities to get a decent education and job training.

I don't think it's the education you are thinking of, but the education taught by parents/family. Also, throwing money at the problem (of education, or anything) doesn't fix it. If it did, then these cities who throw vast amounts of money at education would have low rates of crime involving guns or other violent crimes.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby cliffski » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:40 am

It's a very long term issue though. If you spend money on educating 6 year old kids now, you will have to wait a good 10 years ( at least) to be able to accurately see if those kids ended up less likely to get involved with gangs and gun crime.
Education, pensions, social security, health care, crime, these are all nightmare issues because the proposed causes take effect over a longer timescale than the electoral cycle, so there is little incentive to implement a 'pain now, gain later' policy, even if it works.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby Styrax » Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:53 am

cliffski wrote:It's a very long term issue though. If you spend money on educating 6 year old kids now, you will have to wait a good 10 years ( at least) to be able to accurately see if those kids ended up less likely to get involved with gangs and gun crime.
Education, pensions, social security, health care, crime, these are all nightmare issues because the proposed causes take effect over a longer timescale than the electoral cycle, so there is little incentive to implement a 'pain now, gain later' policy, even if it works.

The problem is, with the government, there seems to be a "pain now, pain later" policy, even if it's not intended. All those programs are well-intentioned, but always end up taking more and more money over time, with little to show for it in return.

If you look at the current situation though, there seems to be a "gain now, pain later" policy, even if it's not intended. This increase in spending and possibly even more in the future will put a lot of pressure on taxpayers later on.

But back on the issue of guns/crime, I just don't see how public education will fix the problem. It's not as simple as pumping money into it and expecting it to get better. The whole education system needs to be redone, but that's a different topic. The bottom line is that schools should focus on career-building, teaching subjects that matter such as reading, writing, arithmetic, etc., while parents should teach morals and common sense.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby mechasaprophyte » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:23 pm

Are schools not currently teaching those things?
Plus, it's one thing to agree that more money is not necessarily a panacea, but it's hard to deny that schools in the U.S. are seriously underfunded. And with child poverty at 20% (and much higher in inner cities), "teach them arithmetic and have their parents tell them to be moral" seems like a fairly superficial solution to the problems associated with guns and gang violence.

As a sidenote, I'm wondering how policymakers are supposed to encourage parents to teach morals to their children. Usually one hears one of two answers from the right: either one advocates "faith-based initiatives" or other efforts to institutionalize religion (as it goes without saying that by "morality" one means "Christianity"), or else one shrugs one's shoulders and says that since inner city crime is clearly a result of nothing more than bad parenting, that it's their own problem
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby rboni » Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:09 am

Gun ownership in the United States is associated with individualism. It’s an image no doubt cultivated by the gun lobby, which is extremely well funded by small arms manufacturers. Maybe it’s time governments in the US provided anti-gun groups with generous funding so that they can compete with the national rifle association and other likeminded groups.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby Styrax » Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:04 pm

rboni wrote:Gun ownership in the United States is associated with individualism. It’s an image no doubt cultivated by the gun lobby, which is extremely well funded by small arms manufacturers. Maybe it’s time governments in the US provided anti-gun groups with generous funding so that they can compete with the national rifle association and other likeminded groups.

Interesting time for the government to fund something like that with support for gun control at a historic low. Then again, tyrants wouldn't want an armed populace.
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby seamus » Mon May 04, 2009 9:14 pm

Styrax wrote:Interesting time for the government to fund something like that with support for gun control at a historic low. Then again, tyrants wouldn't want an armed populace.

i would have to disagree, i doubt that gun control is at a historic low. Thats just hyperbole to me. Although, historically tyrants were actually put in power by the average people to lessen the aristocratic and monarchist powers (see ancient greek tyrants).
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Re: Gun control in USA

Postby Styrax » Tue May 05, 2009 12:08 am

seamus wrote:
Styrax wrote:Interesting time for the government to fund something like that with support for gun control at a historic low. Then again, tyrants wouldn't want an armed populace.

i would have to disagree, i doubt that gun control is at a historic low. Thats just hyperbole to me. Although, historically tyrants were actually put in power by the average people to lessen the aristocratic and monarchist powers (see ancient greek tyrants).

I said support for gun control is at a historic low according to several polls. We all know polls can be wrong, though. Historically speaking, mankind has always drifted towards government control.

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