libertarian party US prez candidate

Forum for non-game specific political debate of the issues raised in general by the game. Economics, transport policy, the environment, gun crime etc etc. be nice!
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libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby retina-scan » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:53 pm

His name is Bob Barr, and after hearing him in an interview (on the Colbert Report) he sounded like the biggest hypocrite ever. Even Colbert joked that Barr wanted to "make the government so small it can fit in the bedroom"

I looked him up, he was the most vocal proponent for the 'war on drugs', he wrote the 'defense of marriage act', an opponent of abortion (and his wife had an abortion), tried to get the pentagon to ban Wicca in the military...

yeah, all of this is very libertarian. (It's not that I'm in completely favor of the things he opposed (I don't like wiccans :lol:) ) but that he would adopt completely opposite views when running for the Libertarian party candidacy, and that he actually won!

I also heard the speech by a libertarian party chairman, they were complaining that the republican party had lost its way, that the GOP had "become the democrats". Basically saying "we dislike republicans because they are in league with the evil democrats, that's why we're libertarian. We're the rightful heirs of the republican throne"

I should stop watching c-span, I'm starting to hate libertarians. I saw this other interview, where they were asking this guy to explain the libertarian party platform, and the kind of people who make it up. The answer was something along the lines of: compromisers (whose goal is to actually get elected), anarchists (that want to get rid of government completely), objectivists (that consider it a 'heroic struggle' for 'freedom')...

I could not stop laughing, I was expecting him to add "right-wing hippies, democrat hating crypto-republicans, and finally conservatives that want it to merge back with the republicans". Next time someone tells me they're a card carrying member of the libertarian party, I'm gonna punch'em in the face!! :lol:
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby cliffski » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:53 am

US politicians certainly seem to be developing random, weird ideas. I read a comment that Ron Paul was in favour of allowing handguns on airplanes. Surely some mistake?
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby retina-scan » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:16 pm

cliffski wrote:US politicians certainly seem to be developing random, weird ideas. I read a comment that Ron Paul was in favour of allowing handguns on airplanes. Surely some mistake?


ha ha ha, what?! that sounds insane!! If I had heard that I would have reconsidered voting for him in the primaries. I REALLY liked his foreign policy, but on domestic stuff he's a bit nuts. (he's also a creationist :lol: )
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby Timofmars » Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:37 am

cliffski wrote:US politicians certainly seem to be developing random, weird ideas. I read a comment that Ron Paul was in favour of allowing handguns on airplanes. Surely some mistake?


No, I doubt it was a mistake. I think Ron Paul's positions on everything can be assumed. If it's anything that is a law, he's against it. I think he's for abolishing just about every government program or agency.

He's said that if people had guns on the plane, 9/11 would have been averted. He's said school shootings could have been averted if students and teachers were able to carry concealed weapons also.

Actually, I believe the pilots now have a gun in the cockpit cabin on flights now. I recall a story of one accidentally being fired mid-flight.
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby mechasaprophyte » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:24 am

Yeah, absurd as it may seem, this is the sort of thing one hears a lot from anti-gun-control people, who seem to think that if everyone is armed, the good guys will all be able to instantly--and with flawless precision--take out a potential attacker at the first sign of trouble. I think they learned this from action movies.
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby retina-scan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:58 am

Yes, I think the major miscalculation comes when you see how many people actually own guns. Guns are pretty easy to obtain right now. I think relaxing the laws would do nothing, it won't increase gun sales or gun ownership. They are as lax as they can get right now, and I don't have a gun. It won't arm a single person on an airplane, but, of course, the bad guys would all be completely armed.

It's all a numbers game. there were an average of 65 people on the 9-11 flights, about 5 hi-jackers per flight. It's safe to assume that if they allowed guns on planes, they would all have them. Now, how many regular people would have guns? I honestly have no idea, but if a hijacker starts shooting and is shot back at, hidden hijackers could wait and see who pulls out their guns.
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby Ramidel » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:00 pm

Here's the thing about libertarianism as a movement:

They wrap themselves in the libertarian banner to break down -federal- regulations on stuff like abortion and homosexuality. That's because they want the freedom to decide, at the state level, to start burning people at the stake.

They also tend to be very hard-hitting on federal economic measures because only the federal government really -is- in a position to regulate commerce in any meaningful way. They support states' rights there, because the states really can't do a damn thing individually to enforce labor laws on companies that employ Chinese prison slave labor.

I'm a libertarian (in general), and I vote Democrat, because Democrats actually support personal freedoms...and, compared to the Republicans, -much less government-!

The Libertarian Party needs to be executed en masse.
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby scylfing » Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:04 am

It is ironic and really annoying to hear someone threaten to punch libertarians and someone else say to execute them. Why the hostility against a group which insists on 'the non-aggression principle'.

It's also very, very wrong to say that libertarians want to burn people at the stake, even when they advocate state's rights. I support decentralization because it's more efficient and creative. I want progress. Behemoth organizations do not advance progress, nor do bureaucracies or the inherently limited variability of centralized policies. Decentralization allows a great variability of methods and policies to be tested and compared. This creates, in exchange for short-term inefficiencies (as compared to centralization), a long-term upwards pressure on governmental quality and efficiency. It can also allow the smaller areas, when they disagree with each other, to engage in different policies peacefully.

To sum, I believe in state's rights as part of my beliefs in advancing technology and human happiness. I have no illusions that the results will be everywhere positive. (It is unlikely I will want to move to Alabama or California under a less federally-dominated scheme, for very different reasons on each.) It is however that variability itself which makes decentralization superior. A panoply of policies can only improve our ability to make lasting progress.
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby mechasaprophyte » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:49 am

One problem is that one could make a formally identical argument in favor of anarchism. Of course, the reason why such an argument wouldn't work is that the benefits of variability and creativity only go so far in an anarchic system, whereas the short-term inefficiencies are legion. Indeed, when left unchecked, many of these inefficiencies will persist and even increase.
And since we all agree that at least some amount of consolidated government power is needed to keep this from happening, it becomes an empirical question of exactly what flexibility:efficiency ratio will best ensure this upwards pressure. Certainly, there are some ruts that the government's lack of versatility has gotten it stuck in, but there are plenty of other cases in which the inefficiencies of decentralization wouldn't just be "not everywhere positive," but would be utterly devastating. I'm no less suspicious of the claim that decentralization is inherently superior than I am of the same claim made about bureaucracy; it's all about finding a balance.
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby cliffski » Tue Mar 17, 2009 12:34 pm

Businesses tend to dislike decentralisation, because it makes the cost of doing business rise. If every state has its own laws and regulations, it becomes almost more trouble than it is worth to sell your product in another state.
If Every school board has its own standards, its far more expensive to provide teaching materials for the whole country, etc etc.
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby rboni » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:24 am

cliffski wrote:Businesses tend to dislike decentralisation, because it makes the cost of doing business rise. If every state has its own laws and regulations, it becomes almost more trouble than it is worth to sell your product in another state.
If Every school board has its own standards, its far more expensive to provide teaching materials for the whole country, etc etc.


A monumental study of devolution was carried out in Italy about 20 years ago that demonstrated the positive effects devolved administrations could have on economic wellbeing. In particular the Emilia-Romagna region benefited greatly from devolution, rising from the second poorest region in Italy to the second most affluent. The study showed that high trust societies, with very high associational and group membership, a strong civic culture with a large and also dense concentration of small businesses, gained great rewards from regional and local administration. The reason for this is that devolved administrations are more responsive to community needs, while central governments are bureaucratic and inflexible.

The study was so influential it created a large academically based communitiarian movement that is having a profound affect on public policy.
Last edited by rboni on Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:26 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby cliffski » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:43 am

Oh absolutely, I'm not saying that from a position of how it affects society a a whole, that centralisation is good. I'm a strong believer in local democracy and a sense of community. I'm just pointing out the business argument against devolving stuff like regulation.
The problem that I see in the UK with local democracy is that participation is minimal. The percentage of people voting for councillors is tiny, and council meetings are practically empty. It doesn't help that local officials themselves are contemptuous of the electorate, holding public meetings on weekday afternoons, and not worrying if they are elected by 10% of the electorate.
We need stronger local democracy, there's no doubt of that, but solving this is linked to other issues, such as local government budgets being controlled by central government. What's the point in voting in a council from party A, when central party B will just slash their funding out of spite?
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby cary123 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:18 am

we need soviet democracy.
Under socialism all will govern in turn and will soon become accustomed to no one governing.
- Vladimir Lenin -

All history has been a history of class struggles...
Friedrich Engels

Socialism needs democracy like the body needs oxygen.
Leon Trotsky
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby Styrax » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:52 pm

cary123 wrote:we need soviet democracy.

And that would accomplish what?
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Re: libertarian party US prez candidate

Postby cary123 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:09 pm

it would not have the issues of number of partys in de facto.
Under socialism all will govern in turn and will soon become accustomed to no one governing.
- Vladimir Lenin -

All history has been a history of class struggles...
Friedrich Engels

Socialism needs democracy like the body needs oxygen.
Leon Trotsky

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