Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

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Grosshaus
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby Grosshaus » Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:30 pm

kongming wrote:"But here in the States tax cuts increase revenue for the government, both on the state and federal level."

No, this is a bullshit, completely counter-intuitive myth that conservatives have invented as ammo for fiscal conservatism, and it's half the reason we're having problems with our government budgets. We had nothing but tax cuts (especially for the wealthy) under Bush, and yet our deficit kept going up. Gee, I wonder why. Could it be because reducing government revenue... actually reduces government revenue? Crazy idea, I know.


It isn't completely bullshit, although not what happens regularly. If taxes are extremely high and confusing with many options for deductions, it has proven possible to increase tax yield by lowering the base rate and streamlining rules. I think this is already well presented in the game with tax evasion that can appear if tax rates are too high.
mechasaprophyte
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby mechasaprophyte » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:06 pm

ohms_law wrote:
This is why we, in America, actually pay MORE than countries with socialized healthcare for WORSE healthcare.

False


No, you.





By which I mean, perhaps it would be productive to elaborate on this claim or provide some justification for it.
There is, after all, plenty of evidence to suggest that while the U.S. spends quite a lot of money per capita on health care, that we are doing worse by most measures than a lot of other countries, many of which do indeed have socialized medicine.
For example, see here
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby kongming » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:22 pm

Grosshaus wrote:It isn't completely bullshit, although not what happens regularly. If taxes are extremely high and confusing with many options for deductions, it has proven possible to increase tax yield by lowering the base rate and streamlining rules. I think this is already well presented in the game with tax evasion that can appear if tax rates are too high.

Okay, I'll give you that insanely high taxes are going to discourage tax payment for a variety of reasons, and that there's an optimal equilibrium point of taxation and you could theoretically increase tax revenue by lowering taxes, ala the Laffer Curve. The vast majority of functioning states do not have a tax rate high enough for this, though, and this is especially true of the US, which has relatively low corporate and high-income taxes.

And yes, it's already in the game, so no point in complaining about it.
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby scylfing » Sat May 09, 2009 10:50 am

There are probably a few modern functioning states who are above the "optimal" point on the Laffer curve (assuming the definition of 'maximized revenue' as optimal), but not many. I support low taxes. It irritates me to hear people argue in favor of tax cuts on Laffer arguments. They don't even do it with fully understanding of the involved argument. If they argued that we're above some "long-term optimal point" (and were thus referring not to tax revenues in the short term but to tax revenues several-decades later) then they might have a point, or at the very least the argument would quickly become too complex to casually follow (as it falls apart into future complexity issues). That is not the way the argument is presented. Instead it is made to sound like the increased revenue capture would occur within the next presidential cycle. As someone who studies economics and has a bookshelf full of related texts, let me say, it won't. We are definitely below the "optimal" point on the Laffer curve for the next 4 years.

I still support low taxes, and I don't need the Laffer Curve to inform my support. I support low taxes on the basis that the government is a corrupt and incompetent beast of a thing. Frankly, I would be less aggressively low-tax if I lived in Scandinavia, but in the United States? I'd still lean that way even in Scandinavia, but at least there the government is more honest. Here the government lies constantly and scandals are quite frequent. There is a common and not entirely unjustified belief that the government will use its tax revenues to do active harm to people here and abroad. The election of Obama hasn't gotten rid of this belief. We've had decades of lying presidents. That's the legacy Obama is dealing with, and so far, he doesn't seem likely to end it. It would take a paragon of honesty to negate the distrust.

By the way, this thread may be more suited for the Political forum. When it was fresher this was the appropriate forum but with the way it has since drifted, I move that the thread be moved.
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby oMaYHeMo » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:16 pm

Without free market, capitalism IS NOT modeled, to claim otherwise is obfuscation. mechasaprophyte, I tell you what's easy to understand, you're condescending and ignorant.

I'll take my Libertarian ideals and live an independent and free life, away from nanny states of your dreams. And you can continue to believe that bureaucracy is the only way to protect yourself from yourself. Meanwhile, stay out of my backyard or suffer the same fate as your forefathers were handed by mine.
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby mechasaprophyte » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:46 pm

I'm not entirely sure who you think my forefathers were, exactly. Perhaps you're threatening to make me harvest your fields? Either way, you have my apologies; I'll try to maintain higher standards of reasoning and discourse.
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby Blue387 » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:45 am

oMaYHeMo wrote:I'll take my Libertarian ideals and live an independent and free life, away from nanny states of your dreams. And you can continue to believe that bureaucracy is the only way to protect yourself from yourself. Meanwhile, stay out of my backyard or suffer the same fate as your forefathers were handed by mine.


So if your house is on fire, would you try to put it out with a bucket brigade? As a libertarian, I assume you won't be needing the fire department because that's the government.

I offer my garden hose and water for $100.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer." - Frank Zappa
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby oMaYHeMo » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:30 pm

Volunteer, fire departments through out the US. Way to be obtuse though.
We're not talking about local government here, now are we. In American terms, it's Fed versus State versus Local. The fire department is funded LOCALLY. Nice try though.

I assumed you were British, given your past comments m.

Anyway it's clear there's going to be no revision in thinking here with all the Marxists lurking. Have fun taxing your citizens into oblivion.
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby AEWHistory » Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:26 am

Styrax wrote:I agree with the first post in this thread. If the private sector can't be properly coded, so be it. But here in the States tax cuts increase revenue for the government, both on the state and federal level. Many other examples of this from around the world.

You also have the issue of gun control. Studies have shown that when gun ownership increases in an area, violent crimes will decrease.

Just about anything in the game that the government can do, private enterprise can do better and cheaper. However, if everything was modeled as such, you wouldn't have much of a game would you?


You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions, but you are throwing them about as if they are untouchable truth (this, by the way, could be called 'faith'). For instance, I'm a professional historian.... I teach college history and have done so for just under a decade now, and I can assure you that the issue of : more weapons = less violence : is not true. Frankly, there is no significant period in human history of which I am aware where people with significant numbers of arms lived in close quarters and didn't proceed to kill one other.

As for the 2nd Amendment, I can assure you--because the focus of my research is, in part, on Jefferson's military policies such as his desire to see an all militia defense establishment--that what was intended was for citizens to have arms ONLY as a regulated militia, just as it reads. The historical evidence that supports this is very strong. If you don't believe me I'll gladly show you.

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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby AEWHistory » Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:30 am

Blue387 wrote:
oMaYHeMo wrote:I'll take my Libertarian ideals and live an independent and free life, away from nanny states of your dreams. And you can continue to believe that bureaucracy is the only way to protect yourself from yourself. Meanwhile, stay out of my backyard or suffer the same fate as your forefathers were handed by mine.


So if your house is on fire, would you try to put it out with a bucket brigade? As a libertarian, I assume you won't be needing the fire department because that's the government.

I offer my garden hose and water for $100.


LMAO.... yea, this is the very first thing I think of when I hear Libertarians whine..... Frankly, why play a simulation about government if you want to abolish government?

What's next? I know, atheists playing g-d sims..... heh heh.....
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby liberalsonskates » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:17 pm

For example in the UK the Tory party is actually liberal, because liberalism in the UK is seen not as a moral question as in the US (liberals - democrats), but economic and social.


Well. Tory liberalism, at least, is the classical Democracy 2 flavour - when it suits them. "Liberals" in Dem2 seem to be an odd fudge of the US and UK nomenclature. I can't quite understand why spending more on prisons pleases Liberals of any kind, for a start - apart from older "Conservatives".

It was the Conservatives in the UK that introduced gay marriage, abortion laws and policies of a small-state character for example.


Er... we don't have gay marriage. Labour (social democrats) introduced "civil partnerships" 6 years ago; the Tory contribution was to ban the promotion of homosexuality and to attempt to expand civil partnerships to blood relatives. Policies of a small-state character is a very, very recent thing for UK conservatives, and doesn't really feature in Cameron's policies apart from in rhetoric. The previously dominant One-Nation faction idealises institutions like the welfare state, for a start. You will find small-state policies much more consistently with the UK Liberal party. Who, incidentally, introduced the abortion laws in the 1960s - but you are right in that the UK conservatives have generally tended to see that politics and morals should be kept seperate, and Macmillian's Tory gov't allowed the laws a free vote (which were passed). This is no longer the case though.

I am impressed with rboni's contributions to the game via this forum. I hope you'll be collaborating to fill in the economic gaps for Dem 3 cliff!
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby Gman » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:07 am

If you see my post that I just did you may find many of your points to be wrong.

For instance, I ELIMINATED infectious disease and lung problems by canceling healthcare, how you ask? Simple, putting that money into fighting poverty and reducing emissions. I also removed my techno backwater by canceling the schools and funding techno companies instead.

Also, cutting taxes raised my gdp, after a 20% income tax cut my gdp went up so much I earned more than the pre-cut.

My only issue is that I managed to remove most of the commuter (i didn't fund buses at all), motorist (toll roads and tailpipe limits), how did people get around in my country? walking? And they most likely didn't work from home because of a hefty internet tax.
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby Ondis » Thu May 03, 2012 2:33 pm

The game is actually quite harsh on any real socialist state as it forces it to deal with capitalists for example. :)
There is also no ability for the state to finance itself without fines or taxes.
(It is a grave misconception that "socialists"(leftists) of any type desire high taxes, the high taxes are usually remedies for the effects of income inequality brought forth by the insistence on a capitalist model due to perceived higher overall efficiency).

I've actually recently "won" the game with a liberal state.
It does have a stabile educational and hospital sector but no state housing, no state pension, minimal unemployment benifits and such. I don't even have corporate taxes nor sales taxes. But I do have reasonably high income taxes and some property/inheritence taxes. I imagine this being an incentive to re-invest and consume.


Besides facts speak for themselves. There's not been one really successfull country that's gone for either maxim within the frames of a liberal democracy.
The few that have managed staying afloat or even having a good standard of living with extremely low taxes and no regulations are small countries that are tax havens. On the other hand having very high taxes as America once had (95% for the richest percentille) and todays Scandinavian countries seem to work but only as long as alot of those taxes are put back into development, education and infranstructure which makes it easier for companies to flourish.

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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby Cid_Yama » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:23 am

I have achieved Capitalist Utopia time and again. The whole premise of this thread is based on some individual saying "my ideology does not achieve my desired results, so the game must be wrong or biased."

Nonsense. Those complaining appear to be Americans following an ideology supposedly based on the Austrian school of economics, who's ideas since 1980 have been tried in the US and proved to be nothing more than justification for an unfree market designed to funnel the wealth of the nation to large corporations and the wealthiest. It is an ideology, not a working economics.

I noticed the ones arguing for it's features can't explain how they are supposed to work, but mearly complain that they don't. That's because they don't.

Trickle down economics has NEVER worked. In the game Corporate tax cuts work within limits to draw corporations to your country or not chase them out. Tax Shelters work towards technological advantage by encouraging investment, but you can't just blindly follow an ideology and expect results.

You have to understand why it's supposed to work, or why it's just political nonsense justifying what you want to do.

Aiming for a small priviledged class ruling over an uneducated, superstitious, peasant / slave class will not work. It is the nation's working class that generates the wealth, and it is their ABILITY to generate wealth that determines how much wealth is generated.

Focusing on achieving the lowest wages possible and the lowest labor costs does not create an economic engine. It creates an unskilled uncapable workforce unable to generate wealth.

If you want to win Capitalist, you have to focus on creating the most powerful economic engine you can. This means you need to create the largest, most educated, most capable workforce you can.

In other words, the more you facilitate your workforce, the more wealth is generated.

Capitalism and taking care of your workforce are not mutually exclusive. They actually go hand in hand.
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Re: Why Democracy will play only by social democratic rules?

Postby ElectoralCollegiate » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:34 am

Because historically it is a fact that cutting spending on public housing hurts the poor; that cutting spending on public healthcare hurts life expectancy which is measured from the population at large; that cutting pensions and welfare lead to bigger gaps in wealth.

Hilarious to hear conservatives complaining that their policies don't work in this game--they don't work in real life either.

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